Talk:Lilim

I do think my first theory is lame too now. But the seond? Actually, consider the way it is writen here.

男性に話しかける事すらできない幼い少女を勇猛果敢に男性を犯すアマゾネスに変えてしまったりと

The brazenly rapes men can really just be description of how usually an amzness act. My Japanese is far from good, but here's very basic. を mean that the noun before it is subject to whatever come after it. In this case, "男性に話しかける事すらできない幼い少女" (a young girl who can't even talk to men - I guess being shy is logical assumption, but where is "sickly" come from?) is subject to "transformed into men violating amazoness" (勇猛果敢に男性を犯すアマゾネスに変えてしまった notice another を here which note how men 男性 is subject to violation 犯す in bold way 勇猛果敢 (に mark that the verb before it is adjective)).

It's actually just like the first sentence about cockatrice. "Brazenly rapes men" is description to "an amazoness", a type of mamono that the girl is changed into, it still doesn't say the girl will have to rape a man herself, so my second theory stand.

So no, this isn't self-deception, it's simply notice ambiguity of text and interpreted it based on handout we got from Kenkou. And once again, what you said all along matter not, the message on the website itself make it clear that his explanation count, and dismiss them because "it isn't written in books" is bullshit. Kuruni (talk) 09:05, August 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * So what's the deal with this? I am more than a little bit concerned by the precedent that when one finds a line one doesn't like because it contradicts one's preferred interpretation of super-special twinkle Mary Sue monsterization that is never bad, you can just re-translate it in a more palatable form until the source information "agrees" with you again. U w0t m8y. Goddess Ilias (talk) 12:58, August 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * (partially lift from the comment)


 * First of all, we known that sometime the translation does wrong (how else we got 2nd revision and such for the profile that isn't in a book yet?).
 * And sometime message is distorted by various reasons during the process of translation, the translator is still a person after all. How they interpret the message has effect on wording, and sometime the message is simply impossible to carries its message across different language (we already went through one in mana/energy case).
 * The important point is that the message seem to be ambiguous but whoever translated it fail to carry the same ambiguous tone. (Say "man eating chicken" pun can mean both man who eat chicken or chicken that eat man. Now the pun can't carry over to Thai. Translate it as "คนกินไก่" or "ไก่กินคน" are both right, but the ambiguity is lost and so the pun just no longer work).
 * If you refuse to believe it, fine, that's your right. I just pointed it out. And since you can't prove that I'm totally wrong about it, my interpretation is still as good as your.
 * Again, we known that the Wanderer can be somewhat unreliable when it come to mamono's behavior and the profile is generalized.
 * And vice versa, there's the precedent that when one finds a whole paragraph one doesn't like because it contradicts one's preferred interpretation of bulldozed monsterization that is brainwashing, you can just claim the author's words mean nothing. While argue about HIS fictional world nonetheless.
 * Regardless, believe in what you want. But as long as it's discussion about official setting, the official words has higher priority than your. --My girlfriend is a loli. 04:44, August 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * And even if he contradict his old statement (writen through perspective of unreliable narrator nonetehless), how can that override his statement? Ever heard of simple concept of retcon? (although I don't think it isn't the case, he already use unreliable narrative heavily from start) Mind you, MGE1 was reelased in 2010, on print material. Q&A words about monsterization come from 2014. So really, at worst you can accuse Kenkou of contradict his older idea, but that doesn't make his newer statement obsolete. Heck MGE1 itself also retcon many idea from web version too. And MGE is dojinshi work, Kenkou is artist, writer, editor, and publisher in one person, so only him has power to does it.


 * You're like the oil company shrieking "but this climate change thing is just a theory, not 1000% fact!" at ONLY the studies that disagree with you.


 * Again, I just pointed out that the message is ambiguous and actually descript it with neutral tone (except the part that Kenkou state how "'it isn't written in books' is bullshit." but that's emphasize on fact). You description of shrieking and such is just straw man tactic to paint me like a person with hysteria. --My girlfriend is a loli. August 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * But, to repeat myself: There are hundreds of ambiguous sentences in these translations . Like where it doesn't specify the gender of the Chief God. Ditto for Ares. Or where the Cupid profile includes confusing euphamisms. The traditional way that we've always dealt with these is by preserving the text that the original translator suggested, but by putting in a note at the bottom about possible alternative meanings. If you do THAT to the Lilim article, then I'd be totally fine with it. But messing around with the main text, especially when, as we have seen in this very article, you interpretation of kanji is not exactly reliable, is something else entirely. Don't get me wrong, you're a lot better than me at moonrunes 'cos I don't know anything, but I guess my point is that neither of us are qualified to be re-translating these things.


 * And you've gotta admit, if we start down this road, with you very suspiciously targeting the passages that contradict your preferred interpretation as the priority targets for re-translation, then no-one's gonna trust the content of this wiki at all. It's what they started doing on MGR, changing "spirit energy" to "mana" and "Demon Lord" to "Monster Lord" - taking a personally motivated translation because they wanted to make monsters sound friendlier. And it's why everyone thinks MGR is a hugbox echo chamber and their forums are dead spaces with tumbleweed blowing through them. We don't wanna go down that route, seriously. Goddess Ilias (talk) 18:19, August 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all, for "But messing around with the main text". I don't alter the text itself, only moved it where it belong to (because it isn't the last paragraph and it's just expansion to how Lilim would change women on whim).
 * You on other hand, has history of insert opinion in main text, that's why I checked original text of that sentence to start with. When I saw that the text has ambiguity tone, but not actually wrong, I decided that it can stay. You're just accuse me here.
 * In fact, even if I actually remove it completely, it would be fine action. because we have similar case in the past, the missing info on dragon zombie in dragon article. And back then we just wait until we get updated translation from MGR. THAT is "the traditional way we done it" with profile's text (I guess you mix up it with your writing), and here it's clear to be a translation that not kosher by MGR.


 * Second, I pick that sentence because you brought it up in earlier post and it's one sentence that I found ambiguity. So why I would pick another sentence?


 * Third, shove your imported drama elsewhere, I don't give crap about it. We use their translation and already altered some of their term to ours, and that's it (and as we discussed it long ago, their terms isn't wrong either, so I don't bother with their motive). Plus, I'm on internet long enough to aware that everyone often mean just me and some other guys. But regardless, it's irrelevant to this discussion.--My girlfriend is a loli. 08:34, August 21, 2015 (UTC)

Admin's verdict is here. Here's the vital point.

"If it doesn't get the green light from MGR, our only reputable source of English translations, then it doesn't make it onto the main text space."

In other words, we're doing it "the traditional way we done it". --My girlfriend is a loli. 04:50, August 22, 2015 (UTC)